Sayonara...
Japster
Member Posts: 672
Well, this is it.
When my subs run out (again) in a month or so's time (although in fairness I ought to still have 3 month's worth left, given below), that'll be it - I'm sick of ploughing unspeakable amounts of my time and effort into bodges, workarounds, or just plain no-win situations for a product that constantly disappoints because it's not a priority to keep it working.
I do appreciate the support from my fellow GS subscribers, but my own otherwise publishable project is STILL in limbo due to yet another problem (this time with touch controls) - if I HOLD down on an actor, it seems to count, but if I tap, nope, more miss than hit.... works fine in preview, doesn't work on the device... and worked fine BEFORE all of the latest fixes to the publishing, I have to say. Never had a problem with this in 10 months of dev, and the control method hasn't changed... Certainly, the "DELIVER" button is a simple tap to start, and doesn't work reliably at all now.
(Incidentally, it still works fine on an older iPhone 6, but this problem affects ALL of my test 6S's, 7's, and I'm presuming newer (and maybe older) devices - so I honestly think that another breakage or issue has arisen, either for ALL touch functionality, or perhaps because of having to bodge camera values because of yet another outstanding issue), affecting these devices)
I've honestly given up at this point. I've had 2 months back of my (now over 3 months) wasted, and I'm no better off, still cannot release without getting crucified by users because s**t just plain doesn't work as it should. I feel that Creator / GS are just broken beyond belief (and please, please do NOT bang on about that f***ing web tool which is nowhere near ready or even a suitable working substitute for a PROPERLY MAINTAINED locally runnable app!!), and the new 1.25.8x Creators seem to run like utter crap compared to 1.25.73 too...
Yes, I've been given 2 months pro back a month ago because of the ad and publishing breakage issues, but what's the point? - I'm now 3 months delayed, my partially reimbursed Pro is running out, and my game cannot possibly be released with the current state of GameSalad...
I was STILL until recently agonising over whether or not I re-subbed even given this, just to get my game published and out there, but I've simply had enough disappointment to make me say 'screw it'. All I wanted was a WORKING product, not even enhancements as I'd given up on them a long time ago, another sore point, but hey...
I don't know how others feel, but I've waited patiently for MONTHS now, like my fellow GS'ers, having to continue paying subs even as I went along whilst unable to monetise, build, etc, hoping JUST to have a working GS product / publishing solution, and I don't even have that...
GS - You really need to get your bloody act together - I was SO Pro-GS - wanted it to do well SO badly, now I honestly think it doesn't DESERVE to survive - company OR product - you've basically left it dying in the dust, a pathetic, none-working, unreliable shadow of it's former self, and constantly ignore all of the outrage at your actions until they threaten to be company-affecting. Too little, too late, and still major issues with a none-working/bodged product...
Feeling pretty ****ing negative right now, and I've certainly had enough of paying year in, year out, for a product that plain doesn't work/do what we pay money for it to do.
PS - to put it in perspective, most companies would have a STABLE, RELIABLE core product that is treated like the golden goose it is, is maintained, and in return pays the bills, and so also helps them to possibly work on a buggy BETA of whatever fad they're working on, that DOESN'T AFFECT the core product that they're being paid for!
In contrast, GS have a BUGGY, UNSTABLE, and UNRELIABLE core product that PEOPLE PAY FOR, LOVE AND WANT (they just want it working, obviously), and this is NOT maintained, NOT reliable as a result, and the company invest ALL of their time and resources in working on the buggy, functionality-lacking, inferior BETA fad/futureware product in preference to working on the CORE, money-bringing product.
What the HELL can we do about it?.... Oh yeah, we can say 'screw this', acknowledge that things are NEVER going to change, STOP paying, and WALK - maybe, just maybe, the message will get through eventually...
/rant
Comments
I agree with you, @Japster. The problem is that if the message gets through, as you say, then that's the final nail in the coffin. Message received, but nothing to do about it anymore.
If this is what GS looks like WITH frustrated (but paying) customers, imagine what it would look like WITHOUT them.
Oh well.
Sorry to hear you're leaving Japster, but I can see why.
I share pretty much all of your thoughts.
@Socks @Adrenaline Thanks guys - I'm sorry too, I just can't keep trying to overcome the ridiculous obstacles in place when all I want to do is write and publish games.
A lot of these problems we're having are the result of MONTHS (if not years) of abandonment in certain areas, and whilst I honestly do appreciate @adent42 's hard work, and improved engagement from both @adent42 and @ForumNinja recently, I'm just sick of stuff not working, and unable to publish what is basically a finished (or at least otherwise releasable) game...
Add to that the usual shenanigans with reduced subscriptions not being highlighted or even achievable by some people, and I'm just honestly sick of supporting a business/product that the owners obviously don't care about it (or their loyal user base/supporters) enough to maintain on a constant basis.
@Socks - btw mate, you kindly helped me out big-time on my WIP fruit machine game, so although my code's probably horrendous, my gfx are all done (got a 200 layer PSD too, all elements snippable), project etc is fairly well underway (I'd say maybe 30-40% complete), and you're welcome to grab it if you want to do anything with it. Like I say, I'm done with this crap mate, as things just aren't going to change, and I like to pay my dues...
I 100% understand where you coming from. Its feeling really hopeless and its tough to keep on working on your project with so many bugs and knowing that there is almost no support from the staff. I finished my game with creator on windows which was crashing a few times per 5 minutes but I kept on going.
Isnt there a way to adjust a few things so your project works and you can publish?
You gotta publish man.
Lots of problems the last month for sure. The new engine isn’t close. Developing games can be a kick in the teeth.
Day by day we loose more of our valuable GS members , they need more programmers to fix bugs faster or this will continue to happen over and over again. Im sorry to see you leave Japster , i really feel and understand what you been through and saw you complain while trying to support GS at the same time over and over again. I even saw other valuable members remaking their games with other game engines which made me sad. But time is everything for indies so it was the right step to take. Wish you the best in the future and hope you get to publish your game.
@Japster NOOO The light is burning out here
The Exodus is real. I'm afraid to jump on the forums because it's becoming a regular occurrence to see the big devs leaving.
I'll miss you @Japster and I wish bright and publishable future for you.
@Japster Sadly too many of us feel the same as you and are on the verge of walking away as well.
...and we still don't even have that!
I gave up on updating and working on my apps months ago, but continued paying for Pro in the naive hope that things would get sorted out, but the state of Creator seems to be getting worse in spite of @adent42 's efforts.
I too feel your pain @Japster the ice is getting thinner...
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@Zwire Thanks mate, but tbh, that latest issue seemingly on iphones newer than 6, has just killed me - I'd worked around the camera issues, and every other issue I came across, and finally, after moving to a new iPhone (several in the end, as I even thought my day job 6S was faulty, after trying an old build and still getting the same problem), with the issue I then got with just clicking on ****ing actors not working, I'm out. I'm sick of fighting an unsupported system to get straightforward functionality working, that enough money is ploughed into annually by us shmucks, they could easily hire dedicated programmers (more of them too), to support this, but obviously someone (either by general consensus at GSHQ, or maybe just the silent CEO) have decided not to re-invest our money into keeping this alive.
So yeah, this is just the last in a looooooong line of showstopper bugs, and when you can't even reliably click a single actor with a simple (and essential) 'on press' behaviour, that used to work fine, without holding down on it for like, a whole second, and my (partially) topped back up Pro is running out quicker than I can investigate, maybe even workaround (again) and publish, I'm through losing time and money trying to get it out of the door...
Maybe it's even my logic - possibly something I've been getting away with on older devices / older Creator builds, but I simply cannot see how that one simple behaviour can suddenly be flakey beyond belief on EVERY actor, in EVERY scene (menus AND game scenes), when it worked fine before... (and continues to work fine on older devices - maybe some internal timing routine for presses in GS craps out on newer devices - I've ceased worrying about it from their perspective - sick of doing so)
@gingagaming Thanks mate - after this latest setback, I woke up and realised I'm just wishing for something that is never going to happen. a reliable GS Creator (desktop), which is just, well, ****ing maintained and given some love on a regular (not knee-jerk, delayed by 2-3 months) basis, so IT CONTINUES TO WORK for the people paying through the nose for it.
The ONLY thing that kept me working in GS was the hope that yes, it would get better, but hey, they want to kill it off anyway, and despite the politeness and moral support ppl are trying to give them for this bloody web tool, it is NOT what I want, and in truth would never be needed by indie devs over a web based tool - it's inferior in use, performance, responsiveness, functionality (HOW complete in that respect is it even now, after how long? NOT nearly enough), etc, and larger-size projects WILL have more of an impact/issue on using it than natively on, say, a 32GB Mac - but hey, they're gonna dead-end this one / run it into the ground, so ppl will HAVE to use the web tool? - when time and time again, they could clean up code / fix the desktop creator if they'd put the same effort into that when they started down the web app route.
As usual, it's a case of dictating what THEY want to give us, not what the paying customer wants!? - in what other market would that ever happen, and THE COMPANY SURVIVE? - They certainly wouldn't go to the extent of sabotaging the WAGE-PAYING product to do that... ...and this sorry situation currently happening with Creator is tantamount to that, whether intended or not - shameful lack of sufficient developers aside, again, not enough resources for a product that, let's face it, costs a LOT (and brings in a LOT, multiplied by their users) without a discount, and so it's users DESERVE a FAR better supported, WORKING product when they're trying to earn a livelihood with it by sinking YEARS of effort into learning and publishing with it.
@RowdyPants - thanks for the kind words, and I'm sorry too, I really am - I'm just sick of putting my life on hold, hoping and hoping that things will change, and that working with GS won't still be one broken disappointment after another, when yet another breakage causes lost time and frustration.
Like most of you guys, I also have a day job, and my spare time after game dev'ing is zero. I don't mind that, I really don't, as I LOVE creating apps, but when the system you're using to create them is constantly behind the curve, and so constantly broken, I'm sick of the frustration and stress caused by (in most cases until recently) ZERO feedback and ZERO progress as regards issues raised, and subsequent fixes. Admittedly, @adent42 has done more in 2-3 months than has been done altogether in the preceding 12, but again, the High Sierra issue - any company that took their product seriously would have been on the Beta of HS, and testing their SOLE desktop app MONTHS before this became an issue - it beggars belief....
...Add to that the fact that the SDK integration for ads for those ad service providers, again, wasn't even touched / given consideration until it once again became a BIG, VOCAL ISSUE, and AFAIK, those SDK's were available way before this became an issue because of none-integration. Again, as a pro-active approach (or if coders were ALLOWED to prioritise none-breakage for the paying product?) would have meant that none of this would have happened, or at least caused so much bad feeling and lost time for us guys...
I have to say, I honestly don't blame the coders atm, not in the slightest (unless they're shareholders who had a say in this policy/philosophy), and I'm thankful for Adent's hard work, but I really get the feeling that whoever is pulling the (purse) strings isn't happy with time being spent on the upkeep of the 'golden goose'....
Goodbye to you and many others who have already moved on to other engines or venues. It is very sad to see how the situation has devolved into what is currently is.
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@PhilipCC - Exactly mate - we don't. Yep, your situation sounds all too similar to my situation - I've had 3-4 years of working around the clock some nights, while holding down a day job, and would be super-happy to keep doing it if the product just ****ing WORKED AS ADVERTISED, and was given PREVENTATIVE maintenance to keep up-to-date.
That is, of course, how every other forward-thinking and company invested and PROUD of their product operates, and it's why you rarely hear of this kind of showstopping crap affecting other big-name companies and that are income-reliant on a SINGLE product (I am NOT counting GS Web, in that equation as a) we don't pay for THAT, and b) you can be pretty damn sure in GS's eagerness to push into Edu, they've had to pitch it at a token price point to get it in the door...)
Which I think is made all the worse by the near contemptuous lack of interest in keeping the community informed, like I've said elsewhere, at this stage, no one is expecting GS to be engaging in conversations about a cool new trick to change an actor's image or a great technique for simulating water that a GS staffer came up with in their own time . . . we are way passed that level of engagement / enthusiasm . . . but at the very least you'd hope they could keep the community informed or answer a few basic questions when they come up.
A typical comment (which I got via PM) from a paying customer being ignored by GS . . . "Gamesalad hasn't responded to my enquiry for 2 weeks".
Thanks for the offer, but I think you probably need to take a break, maybe take 2 or 3 months off and then in the new year jump onto a new engine like Unity (with Bolt perhaps) - with what you've learnt using GameSalad I don't think you'd struggle to piece together the same project in another game engine.
I can hear a cracking sound . . .
@Japster sorry to see you go, but I agree 100% with everything you have said. iv been a user of GS for over 3 years and frankly 90% of the issues that were around then are still around now WITH TONS MORE!
I have 6 projects near completion but due to one bug or another, I would not want to publish them in there current state.
This will also be my last month wasting money on this truly inferior, broken, poorly managed, train wreck of a product.
I originally loved GS and thought it was a great way to get people learning the basics of programming with needing to code, and giving latterly anyone the ability to create games.
Now I truly hope it fails as a company, and I hope its sooner rather then later. If only to protect the people who haven't yet invested there time and hard earned money into a broken product.
for those interested I will be moving to Unity, frankly GS should be embarrassed that add-ons to Unity like uScript / playmaker (logic engines like GS) that are a one of cost to users have less bugs, more functionality, and quicker turn around times for fixes then GS does.
The only plus of GS over the past 3 years of frustration has been the community forum.
@Icebox - Thanks mate, appreciated, and yep, that pretty much sums it up, especially the fact that a product THIS well subscribed is being maintained by ONE (possibly two, on a part-time, arrangement basis) coders - absolutely no way fixes are gonna happen quickly, if at all for some issues, as we've consistently seen...
Take care yourself mate...
It worries me that this tool is going to be used in schools, the stability of GS the constant bugs, and lack of fixes would have put me off when I was a student.
@Bowhill Games - Thanks mate, and yep, that's the sad truth - some major bugs have been there for YEARS, with no fix in sight....
Sounds like we are in the same mindset - Love turns to hate, due to what we're put through, and being unappreciated as paying customers/a paying community. I actually think that you're right in one respect - people are drawn in by the 'magic' of being able to 'easily' create games on a device, then they're hooked to a certain extent...
...and by the time they realise that they haven't just come into this at a bad point, and that it's always, ALWAYS been problematic and buggy due to neglect and bad decisions (and always will be, I guess), it's too late. Too much time and money invested in the dream, self-denial, "it's gonna get fixed / better / improved right? - I mean, it HAS to?!"...
...and even now, with some great work being done on it, it's really the tip of the iceberg - new bugs going in at the same rate as the old ones being quashed, some pretty much project-breaking - corrupt actors and missing attributes, wiped expressions? - then if you do want to work on the HS fix beta, you've got to ADD attributes, then delete them, every single time you want to see the ones in an actor? (iirc) - I steered well clear of that, not really a viable fix unless you're absolutely desperate, and we all know that GS is a tad flakey anyway, without even adding and removing attributes willy-nilly just to see something to work with?...
So yeah, newcomers WILL get sucked in, but hopefully somewhere down the line, before they're ready to actually PUBLISH something, it'll all be fixed and hunky-dory.... ...erm... yeah.... about that. sigh...
My hair is getting thinner!
Some self-inflicted by pulling it out and some from worry about the future of GS and my apps in the store.
I love Gamesalad. I think it's awesome. Sad to see you go though. Good luck!
Oh well, good luck to everyone. 
P.S. How come the developers don't seem to respond to what you guys are saying?
When they pulled the plug on Graphine I thought that was pretty much the end of GameSalad. It was their last chance to have quality software they could upgrade without introducing a bunch of bugs each time and the upgrade path would have been much easier and quicker to do.
Hope I am wrong as I love using GameSalad when it works. It's been two years since I have made a game been busy elsewhere but hope to create another game in the future. When the time comes I might look at Unity with a plug in instead.
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@Twayne2 - Thanks, I do too, I just hate the fact that lately it seems constantly broken...
The devs/company very rarely respond these days unless there's a mass outburst gathering momentum, and in this case, they're possibly downplaying it by ignoring it I guess, or they just don't care - either way, not my problem soon...
@colander - Yep, I don't want to, but I'm guessing that's the route I'll have to go - Unity and plug-in... Cool fact: At one point mention of ANY dev product/site other than GS could get you blocked or banned from the forums, how's that for insecurity? - at least this doesn't seem to be the case now that they've gone down the route of treating GS as a 'stepping stone' for people 'wanting to move on'....
Let me make it very clear though, if GS was working as expected, was still going to EXIST in the app I know and love (when it's working), they would have had customers for life, instead of a mass walkout - seems utterly stupid decisions are made and we have no say in them - another reason I'm so frustrated.
GS is a LOT bigger I know, but years ago I had to clean up and mostly re-write an entire suite of investment programs as the coding was just SO bad and unreadable, hacks everywhere that caused other issues (bug: out by .01 on amounts > £50,000. The guy's 'fix' was to add .01 if the amount was over £50k - which yes, lead to other bugs, and more bodges led to other bugs - each bug I fixed properly meant I removed 3+ bodges, and 3 more bugs, etc).
Yes, it was a ball-ache, yes, it was monotonous, but it was straightforward as the code was THERE - it was at least easy to figure out what it was trying to do, albeit badly. GS is surely no different for a coder who knows it, other than scale, so WHY can't it be re-coded as a desktop app update, given the resources thrown into the Web 'app'?
Because no-one at GS WANTS to re-build a much better wheel to do the same job - they want to do a Graphene, play with/build something completely new, move the goalposts, potentially tie users into not being even able to work offline on their projects, in addition to trying to break into that elusive (if not lucrative?) educational market? - again, it's not the best direction for us devs, and arguably not the best direction for GS - imagine how many HAPPY / SATISFIED desktop users they'd have retained / built up if they'd just sunk a PORTION of the time spent building this new (unwanted by most) buggy, lacking, limited Web app into getting their existing WANTED product working and up-to-date?
Well, I'm p*ssed, and I'm going to try building my app again tomorrow, to see if the touch issues are still an issue, and if they are I honestly do think that that's it, and I'll ride out my remaining subs doing F all with it.
I can confirm the touch issue. If it is what I think it is, GS are aware of the issue (and have been for some time). Just to confirm, @Japster -- is this issue affecting all your buttons, or only those close to the edges of the screen?
Ahh... @pHghost - Thank **** someone else has it, and I know I'm not going mad!!!.... thank you for confirming mate...
Yep, mainly buttons as the edges of the screen (most of them, due to the nature of not trying to take up normal action areas)...
To me, it seems like a possible side effect of having to compensate for the camera mess-up bug, but I could be wrong - I find I have to swipe or HOLD the buttons to get a guaranteed press - at first I'd try pressing 9-10 times, no joy, until I mistakenly HELD a button too long - I'd even tried different areas of the screen in case the expected and on-screen locations weren't matching, but no, holding on any button works fine.
The crazy thing is that it was FLAWLESS on my iPhone 6, just completely unusable on newer (and possibly older?) phones. At this point I can't even recall if Android is affected, though I think not.
If GS have been aware of this for a while, and STILL not fixed, and no-one from GS has interjected on any of my posts explaining my latest issues and frustrations (and **** the Blue Button and a potential 2 week response)... ...well, that honestly makes me even madder mate....
I literally cannot release my game - I can't move all buttons around an already busy screen, and quite frankly it's completely unacceptable that a showstopping bug like this isn't fixed as an absolute priority, but hey, I should be used to this by now eh?...
Yeah. Same issue.
Nope. Unfortunately, in my experience it's an entirely general bug that's been around for a long time. But it seems to only (or mostly) manifest on newer, larger-screened devices (though that would need to be tested properly, but in any case, it's a big issue).
Roll Turtle suffers from it. So do other GS games. If you know what you are looking for, it's relatively easy to spot. If you don't know about it, you might think you just tapped wrong and that's why the hero didn't jump and fell into the hole with spikes. It potentially adds a lot of frustration to games, or breaks them.
So the good news is, it's not just you.
Now the bad news: GS knows about the issue at least since mid-February, when I walked them through it quite in detail. I posted about it on the Forums ( http://forums.gamesalad.com/discussion/94197/left-screen-edge-problem ), but there wasn't much response from users here.
GS acknowledged the issue, but said they didn't see it as a priority at that point (perhaps because there wasn't much response, so not that many people seemed affected) and recommended designing the UI with buttons further form the edge as a solution.
Let me know if you are interested, I can post the discussion I had with @ForumNinja here, which contains a bit more detail about the issue from tests I ran.
Thanks a lot for this @pHghost - I'd definitely be interested in reading what the response / background was, but even now, not a word about a fix, @adent42 @ForumNinja @Braydon_SFX . As others have said to me in PM, it's pretty much a dead product in terms of being left high and dry with showstopping bugs like this, it's absolutely ridiculous! - So, reported in FEBRUARY, and not a thing done about it? - I don't know how you've coped, other than having to bodge stuff...
I'm assuming you had to re-jig / move your controls all over the place? - ludicrous - but hey, it's a workaround (in the most ridiculous sense, so another bullet dodged from taking time out from their obsession with the web version, for GS for 10 months so far)...
ie. - How am I really going to fit some of these menu and game screen buttons anywhere other than where they currently (unobtrusively) are? - Ridiculous that we even have to think about bodging this, and making our apps look unprofessional in terms of layout - not aesthetically correct/pleasing, but the worst place possible, just so they work? - I might test and see if enlarging the dimensions of the camera etc, more in line with resolution help, but other than that, I'm pretty much out of ideas... ...How am I supposed to re-work ALL of these buttons?! - Even the "Deliver" one doesn't work.... ...These are old screenshots, but you get the idea.... Even worse now, with reward video buttons, etc, also around the edge of the screen.
In a sense I was lucky -- busy with other projects, but yeah... with some apps, this is doable, but with others not so much.
Yeah, your app definitely falls into the category (with any menu-heavy or controls-heavy apps) where redoing the UI is simply not doable, as it fills the screen from edge to edge.
Do test it, but don't hang your hope on it. If you manage to find a solution to this, that would be great, but I did a ton of testing in February and didn't find a way to get around it.
Back when I was testing it, it was affecting only the left edge of the screen, but it's possible the issue has evolved since; I've definitely seen it happen with buttons close to the top of a screen. Sometimes the bug is present even when testing on in the Viewer, sometimes not, but always in ad-hoc and publishing builds.
Here's my communication with GS about the issue:
Here is a link to the project used for testing: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jymid39ewqlhg5o/test_edge_touch.zip
This is funny , i bet you 1 year from now the issue will still be there and they will still be working on something else